43 replies to this topic

[Randy]

A couple of gripes: (they're about finding things on the various Etomite sites)

1) What's the deal with multiple snippet locations on the site? I know of at least two that have different content. Are there others too?
2) Would it be too much trouble to edit the forum CSS so the forum doesn't have to adust it's size to retro fit the GoogleAds block on the page? It makes the forum jump around. This is annoying mainly becuase the first thing I do when I open the forum is hit the 'view new posts' link...but with the new layout + GoogleAds, that link may show up in one of three places over a short period of time.
3) I personally think Ralphs GREAT tutorials should all be available on the Etomite site and evidently available to everyone who passes by looking for use case type help.

It's really hard to work with a project that has consistency in delivery, look-n-feel, navigation, etc (like http://Gentoo.org )....and then try to find something related to Etomite. Maybe it's just because I haven't been around long enough to know the ins and outs of things. But I do know it was better a few months ago than it is now.

Thanks for listening.

Edited by Randy, 16 April 2007 - 02:55 AM.

[Dean]

(1) Originally, we had a snippet library that relied on the IPB SDK, and when ever we performed an upgrade of IPB, the SDK broke, which meant no one could edit snippets / add them to the library. The coding development on the IPB SDK is sketchy, and is quite literally on it's knees - the users are quite literally dragging it along now..
Now, we use the IPB Download component, which will always work with IPB, as it's written by the same people.
If there are different versions of the snippets, its because they haven't been added to the site or updated to the new library.
For those reading this that don't know - the new snippet library is here (the announcement was here in case you missed it)
If you have a snippet, then submit it there, and then PM me with a link to the old one that I can merge the old thread into :-)

(2) I will look at this, as I thought I had done it - I may have forgotton to save the change.. (Edit: Changes now saved and Cache Cleared)

The last comment (that includes Gentoo), I don't follow what you mean
The organisation is much better now than it was months ago - the header is the same throughout, and I received many PM's and Y!IM's congratulating on the work that I put in to (finally) make some kind of consistency and flow between the different parts of the etomite site. Before, it was all over the place, with no common ground between the different parts of the site.

No problem with listening to the comments - the only thing I didn't appreciate (and actually has rather

Spoiler

pissed

me off) was the word "Yuck!" in the post title - considering the current layouts throughout the site are temporary (as Ian is working on a new layout for everything related to etomite) ... that and all the work that anyone puts in to etomite is voluntary. I put my time into making things flow, and if they aren't appreciated, I won't bother in future. Oh I'm sure I'd get people complaining then too. But hey, thats what we are here for.

<< EDIT: REMOVED NON-CONSTRUCTIVE ITEMS >>

Edited by Dean, 15 April 2007 - 10:23 PM.
Removed Content

[Dean]

moved to correct place: Site Suggestions and Bugs

[Ralph]

I agree that my tutorials should be migrated to the main site... It's one of those items on my ToDo list but, obviously, not near the top of it... I've been doing some testing of a different method of presentation over the past several weeks in an effort to get to a point where I can perform the migration without breaking anything - and I've broken a thing or two in the process...

As for the somewhat scattered appearance, keeping the forums organized is an ongoing battle... Given the vast number of posts and threads, it's no wonder people sometimes have problems finding the information they are looking for and without a major maintenance sweep I we're lucky to keep up... And in Deans defense, he does put a lot of time and effort into keeping the entire site chugging along... You go, Dean...

[Randy]

OK, I removed the Yuck! from the title. Was not referring to the visual nature of what you've done with IBP or all the management you do behind the scenes. I think what you've done looks wonderful and I echo Ralph's comments on your contributions. You Go Dean!

Thanks for looking into the GoogleAd thing. (FYI: Now it's gone altogether (for me at least) and that certainly wasn't my intent.)

The site has a lot of content and I know you work very hard at it. Please view these comments as tiny little tweaks and treat them any way you want.

### Usability from the FWIW department###

Please let me run through an example. You're welcome to click along in another tab if you'd like (I encourage it).

A brand new Eto user (a php dev) is checking things out at http://www.etomite.com . Looks through the nav items on the left and clicks through them one by one. Since he's a php dev he's interested when he sees the snippet library. Next, he navigates to the documentation section and reads the bit about snippets. He says "wow this is cool!" (just like we all did) and looks to the left navigation bar. He thinks...hmm...I know I clicked a link that said snippet something. Then realizes there isn't a [Home] button either and starts wondering about snippets (amongst other things). So he hunts around and finds the link at the top that says 'snippets/templates' and clicks that. Wow! Where'd the left nav go...this isn't that same snippet page. ( I'm lost) Now how do I get back to where I was before?

This navigation design is not in the best interest of the community. If don't agree, please stop reading. Otherwise...

Two applicable measures of usability:

1) Visual consistency. You've pretty much nailed this...until one uses the navigation links on the left
2) Navigational consistency. This needs help.

If you punch up [Forums], [Documentation], or [Etomitized Sites] from the left navigation menu, visual consistency goes awry. No big deal. Navigation consistency is shot and is a big deal. Punch up [Forums] and the entire left navigation goes away altogether. Punch up [Documentation] and the entire navigation scenario is changed to the extent that you cannot use the same [Home] (et.al.) button that exists on every other page (except for the forums). Punching up [Etomized Sites] simply links to the forum topic so this is the same result as [Forums].

The technical limitations of Etomite or IPB shouldn't be a factor that makes a design inconsistent. A non-Etomite person will go to the documentation page, click on any of the topics and see a hierarchical menu. They'll try to navigate back home and...uh.....get there somehow. The "somehow" is not relevant since it is inconsistent with the rest of the site in regards to the left navigation menu. Then the person will wonder...hmmmm....why couldn't the documentation stuff just be a sub menu on the main menu just like on the documentation page does it. It can be; it's just HTML and JS.

I realize the top 'network' menu is there but these comments address consistency of the left navigation menu.

### Snippets ###
1) I'll put a suggestion in a separate post to request a <textarea> for reviewing the code just like the old snippet library.
2) What will it take for you and I to reduce the snippet locations to 1? Let me know and I'll do my part.


Best Regards,

[Dean]

Ok, I've tried to patch the forum look into the main site - I am aware things have gone awry with it, but it's gonna have to do until we have a new layout.


The snippets need saving as files and uploading into the download manager.
Unfortunately, there is no mass-import.

So - if anyone is reading this that has a snippet in the library, upload it, and let me know so I can delete the old version in the library.

[Ralph]

Hey, I like the site menu in the left column... I was wondering if that could be put there... Sweet...!!!

[Dean]

Thanks Ralph

[Randy]

Defintely sweet! I really think this will help folks (me too!) a lot.

Thanks Dean.

[Dean]

No Probs

Unfortunately, the docs site is a separate entity altogether (to allow collaboration and to keep things secure), which is why I've just had to add a link back to the main site at the top of the doc site navigation.

[Randy]

I think this is a suitable compromise. Thanks.

This is the dillema Eternal and others bring up aout sub sites and the like. We could use getExternalDb() to pull the links from the other Eto db(?)

[Jelmer]

Dean, I'll upload the snippets I've contributed this week. Unfortunately I'm a bit busy these days...

[Randy]

... the docs site is a separate entity altogether (to allow collaboration and to keep things secure)...

By collaboration I suppose you mean for those folks that have rights to edit the content on the doc site?

I've mentioned this to Ralph in the past...how do you feel about community maintained documentation? A wiki that all registered users can contribute documentation directly into the repository. I'm sure a minimal rule set could be established to ensure compliance with styles and content. One rule suggestion would be "no hiding behind aliases". If posting documentation then your real name will be posted for the world to see. An alternative approach would be to build a documentation team to share the responsibility while limiting the number of people involved. I'm sure the 'staff' members already comprise this team.

I've see wide open community based documentation on some other projects and it worked quite well. One of the differences is those projects have specific folks assigned to modularized code pieces and they ensure the documentation changes were accurate. I'm afraid you and Ralph would be doing all that here. That's why I suggested a documentation team.

Please consider allowing community created/maintained documentation.

Thanks,

[Jelmer]

A few loose thoughts:
- We had a docs team for a while, to create the docs site that's currently there. It was quite a struggle to write what is there now.
- Before that, there was a Wiki which was completely ruined a few times by outsiders

[Dean]

Sorry, but we will not be going back to a member-submit wiki... ever.

To start with, it was great. Only registered users could post to the wiki, and it was evolving.
But then over time, and as the Etomite Project got better known, the Wiki was always being targetted for spammers and hackers.
Every day it would be targetted, and I'd have to "roll" back the content.

Eventually, they hit it so bad, it corrupted the database.
It was at this point that I gave up - it was just sapping the energy out of me.

But IF it can be secured right down, where only the staff can post to it, or make any changes, then yeah, possibly I will think about it.
What I'm not going to do is learn a new templating engine though. I have quite literally scraped through with the IPB stuff that I have skinned.

If the product could export as PDF, that would also be great - remember, that we can't change anything on the server to get any additional extra features (ie php stuff) ... (don't even get me or ralph started on that one!)

Everything needs to be kept up to date - we learnt the hard way. For those that were here a while back, IPB released a patch for the forum - I thought I'd patched it, but it turns out I was a day late at patching. Hackers caused havoc. I had to then spend an entire day migrating onto a new server and checking the data at the same time. It was hell.
So, if we do end up using a wiki (or anything else for that matter), it needs to be updated the minute patches come out.

[Randy]

Wow. Now that's yuck!

Will certainly defer to your experience.

[Dean]

Like I said, if you can screw a wiki down so far that there is less than 1% of it getting trashed, then yeah I'm up for it.

Show me what's available, and I'll be more than happy to look at it :-)

[Randy]

Trac

[Dean]

Trac - I've heard of that.

Ralph, wasn't that what a previous volunteer was supposed to be setting up, then decided he wasn't able to (along with the SVN) on the Etomite Server?

[Ralph]

Trac - I've heard of that.

Ralph, wasn't that what a previous volunteer was supposed to be setting up, then decided he wasn't able to (along with the SVN) on the Etomite Server?

Yes, we were promised full SVN and Trac integration, but it never came to be as the server won't support it although we were told that it would... A very sore spot with me that will need to be addressed in just a few months all over again... We'll see how much more money we have to piss away when our year of hosting is up...

As for the documentation, I have always thought of using Etomite for the documentation as a means of displaying just one aspect of what Etomite can do... Oh, by the way Dean, I busted a page in the snippet doc's the other day... My bad... I didn't back it up before accidentally messing it up... Possibly an example of one of the downfalls of using Etomite for collaborating on documentation...